• GerryMandering@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    Absolutely tragic situation. All those fathers, brothers, sons being blown apart, mutilated, killed, scarred, tormented, brutalised. Horrific.

    And for what? So that blackwater or some fucking Russian billionaire can compete for control of mineral deposits that have been buried in the ground for millions of years and belong to precisely no one.

    Fuck this war

    • Ryuu Dragonfang @lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      And for what?

      For the sake of the people in the Donbass who were being shelled since 2014. For the sake of no nuclear war. For the sake of bringing NATO to its heels.

      • raunz@mander.xyz
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        1 year ago

        So did the casualties/severity of those things increase or decrease after the three day special military operation begun?

        • cayde6ml@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          “You can’t call the cops to arrest me for beating my wife, it’ll just make me want to hurt other people!”

          -UkraNazis as they shelled Donbass and acted surprised when Russia gave them a taste of their own medicine.

        • Addfwyn@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          Look, I support the fastest resolution as possible to prevent more casulties as long as it is effective, but this argument is nonsensical. Even the New York Times was reporting on Ukraine shelling their own cities with cluster munitions back in 2014. You can’t just say “people will die if we intervene, so go ahead and keep murdering people, we won’t stop you”.

          As an aside, three day thing never came from Russia, that was Belaraus and a US general estimating it was possible to take Kiev in three days if they wanted to.

            • rjs001@lemmygrad.ml
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              1 year ago

              Absolutely. Ukraine pretends to have the intrestes of the civilians at heart but it only serving the western capitalists over their own people. If Zelensky and his dictatorship cared about the Ukrainian people they would have went against NATO to form a peace treaty. Rather than that, he serves American weapon manufacturers

              • Addfwyn@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                If Zelensky and his dictatorship cared about the Ukrainian people they would have went against NATO to form a peace treaty.

                Which by all accounts, they had multiple close attempts at until the NATO Overlords put a stop to it. Not only would they have saved many lives, they probably would have ended up with better terms than they would get now. Even if he didn’t give a shit about his people, and I don’t think he does, the country would have been better off taking the deals that had already been negotiated.

        • Addfwyn@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          We can only hope that as many of those people are in the platoons that have surrendered as possible. Which honestly seems likely to me, the far-right elements are not going to surrender because they know they wouldn’t be treated quite as kindly.

          I don’t want any more innocent civilians to die if it can be avoided, and I do consider children and elderly thrown into the front lines with a gun and a salute to be civilians.

        • GerryMandering@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          I don’t give a shit about donwvotes but my comment wasn’t in bad faith.

          Edit: And I’m not a liberal

          • Blursty@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            And for what?

            This take betrays a lack of understand of the nature of the war. It wasn’t for those things.

            • GerryMandering@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              You don’t think this war was about resources? You don’t think the western expansion towards Russia is about exploiting “economic opportunities” for the likes of blackwater?

              Or that the Russian defence of its sphere of influence is about defending these same material resources?

              Dismissal of material analysis of the war betrays a lack of understanding of the nature of the war.

              • NATO expansion is certainly about resources, but it’s fundamentally about destroying Russia like they helped do to the USSR three decades ago, both to get rid of Amerika’s second biggest geopolitical enemy and to weaken China. The Russian intervention in the war was to prevent this, not to conquer Ukraine’s natural resources (although I’m sure there are capitalists as well as people in the Russian government who want to do this). Intervening in the genocide in the Donbas after all these years also helped increase popular support for the Russian government, which does matter to some extent

              • lemmyseizethemeans@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                I agree it really is a war between capitalists and as such I have a tendency to say fuck them all. But NATO nuclear missiles in Ukraine with a 6 min flight time… yeah I can see why Putin reacted the way he did so gotta say in the final analysis the west provoked this war because they wanted to give Russia it’s own Vietnam. Who loses? The people. Who wins? The capitalists. Same as it ever was.

                That’s why we need to focus on the goal of dismantling capitalism. that my internet friend is the real enemy

      • NuPNuA@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        War is terrible, yes, it’s also the only option sometimes.

        Ukraine didn’t ask to be invaded, or make the first strike in this warz they’re being invaded by an agresssor and are defending themselves. Morally the assistance the west is providing is justified.

        Or do you think they should just roll over and let Russia take over?

        • Are you aware of the context behind the war? The history of fascism in Ukraine since World War 2? The continued ignoring of Russia’s security demands (very reasonable ones by the standards of a massive country) by NATO? The history of illegal NATO invasions and war crimes? The US-planned fascist coup in 2014? The almost decade-long mass slaughter of the people in the Donbas? It’s also worth pointing out that Russia refused to recognize the independence of the Donbas republics for eight years, only advocating for autonomy within Ukraine after the fascist coup. What exactly do you think Russia should have done in this case? War is terrible, yes, but it’s also the only option sometimes.

        • StugStig@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          Ukraine launched their ATO in 2014 and the JFO in 2018. Ukraine did make the first strike as inconvenient that fact might seem to some.

          Donbass had no say in Maidan nor did they vote for Poroshenko. The LPR and DPR asked to become part of Russia. The Minsk accords asking for autonomy within Ukraine was a compromise Putin wanted not them. Putin jailed anyone agitating for full-on direct intervention or even just aiding the Donbass republics, which is why February last year took some Russian commentators by surprise. The treatment of Strelkov pretty much supports the theory that initially, Donbass wishing to become part of Russia was an inconvenience to Putin.

          Georgia’s invasion of South Ossetia set the precedent that it doesn’t really matter who the aggressor is. The western media is simply unconditionally against Russia.

        • Addfwyn@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          Ukraine didn’t ask to be invaded, or make the first strike in this warz they’re being invaded by an agresssor and are defending themselves.

          I will take your position in good faith and just assume you are very misinformed. Not entirely your fault, if you only started paying attention to the region in the past couple of years this is exactly the narrative that has become mainstream.

          A lot of the underlying circumstances of the war date back to 2014 (and earlier, but we will try to keep a fairly tight time frame here). A more pro-Russian leader (Yanukovych) was elected by the people, which they US obviously did not want, so a US-backed coup was staged. Surprising nobody, this is US Foreign Policy 101. You can read about Victoria Nuland for more specifics, but there are leaked phone calls of her explicitly selecting the next leader of the country which ended up being Poroshenko. The new administration rolled back several amendments to the constitution and began a widespread crackdown on its political opponents (specifically anyone with Communist ties or leanings) and banned anyone from any communist party of holding office. The crackdown renamed thousands of streets and cities named after famous communists and removed many statues of the same. Even the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic flag was banned. Totally not fascist.

          The above was, incidentally, when Russia first become involved, which led to the annexation of Crimea that you are probably familiar with. It is also when the Ukrainian military began shelling Donetsk and Luhansk due to pro-Russian movements there.

          Interestingly, a lot of western sources were much more open about fascist elements in Ukraine and crimes comitted thereof, because they did not have the vested interest in hushing those things like they do now. In the years leading up to the current operation, you can find many stories from the New York Times or Washington Post harping on Azov and neonazi elements in Ukraine, it wasn’t a secret but people were just not paying attention to Ukraine at that point.

          You don’t need to take my word from it, but I do encourage you to do your own reading. Please let me know if you need any suggested sources and I will be glad to provide some.

        • raunz@mander.xyz
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          1 year ago

          Certainly not. They have the right to defend themselves at the very least

          • lemmyseizethemeans@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            Who is ‘they’? Guess you don’t mean the native Russian speakers in Donbass who were told ok your political parties are now all illegal and you have to submit to Goldman Sachs and black rock corporate takeover of your resources?

            Seriously look at the polls of actual Ukranians. They’re not a monolith. Eye opening

            • raunz@mander.xyz
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              1 year ago

              They as in Ukrainians, as is clear from the context.

              the native Russian speakers in Donbass who were told ok your political parties are now all illegal and you have to submit to Goldman Sachs and black rock corporate takeover of your resources?

              Citation needed

              Seriously look at the polls of actual Ukranians. They’re not a monolith. Eye opening

              I know polls. The ones I’ve seen suggest that the majority of Ukrainians want to fight until victory and no territorial concessions. Obviously you’ve seen diffent polls.

              Point still stands, THEY have a right to defend themselves.

                • raunz@mander.xyz
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                  1 year ago

                  Citation provided

                  So it seems like nobody was told to submit to Blackrock. Instead Zelenskyy asked for investment money and got it.

                  And further about the idea it is a monolith here’s the polling data

                  Have you actually read the article and linked poll? What’s the point you’re trying to make? Seems pretty unrelated to what I said before.

                  So do Ukrainian citizens in Donbass who are being shelled by Azov Nazis have the right to defend themselves?

                  Yes.

                  • lemmyseizethemeans@lemmygrad.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    So Zelinski makes all the leftist parties illegal and agrees to sell off all the public resources to Goldman Sachs and that’s a win. Hoo Ray. Goooo western corporate capitalism! Maybe they can end up like LA or Portland with a massive homeless population but lots of profit for the investors.

                    The polls are interesting. They show Ukraine is not a monolith so when you say ‘they’ have a right to defend ‘themselves’ you need to define which ‘they’. Also no polling data at all from Crimea which is suddenly the new thing that needs to be ‘saved’ even tho most of those folks (90%) wanted to join Russia.

                    In the end it doesn’t matter. It’s a war bet capitalists and everyone loses except Lockheed, US LNG exporters etc. It’s a big win for them.

              • rjs001@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                They can’t truthfully say what they want as people with political beliefs against the dictator are arrested

                  • rjs001@lemmygrad.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    100% But “hurr durr Ukraine is a democracy and Russia is a dictatorship” bullshit is spouted by liberals to defend Ukraine just arresting anyone against their dictator of Zelensky. (and liberals are upset and down vote when you mention that Ukraine is run by a fascistic dictator of Zelensky)