KillingTimeItself

mayhem: exists

this is bluesky, so that would make sense, i would he is also a nobody on bsky then.

Sometimes these people are important, and i wouldn’t know shit fuck about them lmao.

would someone like to tell me who this guy is?

this could help, but you could go even further. Instead of “you’re being an asshole” you could say “this is an asshole thing to do, you probably shouldn’t do this” or something like that which dissociates the person from it very aggressively.

I agree that it’s up to us to redefine what healthy masculinity should be, there’s a lot of redefining to do in general… And the value of information cannot be overstated in these cases, because examples of how not to do it can be the perfect points with which to define to-dos!

yeah. It’s going to be a big change socially.

Your point about raising men with a good social culture is a good one, however it has its roots in the fallacy which really lies at the heart of the matter - that only men need fixing.

i think this is a misunderstanding of my point. I’m not saying that men are fucking stupid and retarded, i’m saying that society has let men slip through it’s fingers into a pit of despair, with little to help them crawl out of it. Women are socially better equipped to deal with this for various different reasons, and socially they’re doing pretty good right now because of their workforce and education push happening right now, which is a good thing, presumably they will have a similar problem in the future, however i don’t think it’s going to be as significant as they all have really solid support structures, men often have none. Socially it’s ok for women to engage in them and to partake in them, socially for men, it’s not nearly as acceptable.

As a collective society, fathers, mothers, family relatives, we all need to work and focus on raising better men going forward who can be more functional in society, as well as giving them a clear place to exist, because right now, there isn’t really a place for them to exist.

As a man, I’ve sat through a work conversation where a group of women (including my direct senior) have openly denigrated men in humour (I found it edgily funny). If it had been the other way around, the men involved would be talking to HR the next day, no laughs involved. The standards to which both parties are held need to be the same, though what those standards are is anybody’s guess.

this is definitely a problem, and this is why i’m leaving these comments, people focus too much on this aspect of the issue, rather than the aspect we should be collectively focusing on, including you at the moment.

Equality, equity, justice: that lovely ladder graphic. If you give students extra resources, their outcomes are better. “Women in stem”, “women’s networking day”, all aimed in one place at one group. In our drive to redress imbalance against women, we have created one against men.

this is a different story entirely, and im not sure how much of this is a problem, though it’s probably not the optimal way of going about it either so.

It isn’t the fact that young men feel isolated and need socialising that’s stopping them, it’s the fact that the deck is rigged against them and we celebrate that rigging.

i think it’s more along the lines that men are essentially an english speaker who up and moved to a place with a completely different culture and a completely different language, they just can’t really do much in that environment because the expectations they have don’t exist in the real world. There’s a reason we see male partners break up with females who begin making more than them, theres a reason they have higher suicide rates, there’s a reason men are generally less sociable than women. There’s a reason behind all of this, and it isn’t some failure of the previous social system, it’s a failure of the previous system, and the current one. The worst aspects of both systems are rearing the ugly sides of their faces simultaneously right now, and it’s compounding somewhat excessively here.

What you see with the “manosphere” (never heard it called that before, I like the name), is the froth and bubbles. The boys who are angry, but who can’t do anything about it, are the ones who tumble in there and become monsters instead.

exactly, and the reason why they end up in there, is because it gives them some sense of purpose, and some sort of drive, redefining social norms back to how they were in the 50s makes everything they do more logical in their framework. We need the modern version of this that isn’t predicated on women having no rights, and men having literally only the protection of women to deal with. (i didn’t come up with the name btw, it’s what online peeps refer to it as)

The solution isn’t simple, and while socialisation will help a little, there needs to be fundamental changes to the social world before we can move forward. If your argument were to be, say, socialising both men and women to be kinder to one another, I’d be with you.

my argument is that we aren’t raising them correctly, we’re not raising them with the proper expectations or any at all, and this has a clear and defined impact on the life of men going forward, it’s not hard to demonstrate it. It’s not hard to redefine the role of a person in society, we just need to do it from a young age. The broader philosophical and child rearing debate here is how specifically to do that, but we all have people that we all love for being genuinely good humans, jimmy carter, mr rogers, etc. People like that are of a dying breed i worry. Starting there would at least give us something to work with on the short span of it.

there was nothing i wanted to be when i was growing up. I got the question of “what do you want to do” but there isn’t exactly a good answer to that question and nobody seemed to ever really care either. Things are more focused on education and not being an asshole individually, as opposed to be a socially good person who respects other people.

It should be no wonder that people raised like this turn to figures like andrew tate looking for some semblance of something to focus on.

the reason why strong man is quoted is because if you don’t grow up to be a strong person, as a man or a woman, or whatever in between, you fucking die.

It’s much easier for people to mock and ridicule than to educate and correct.

yes, and this is why i think we should be completely ignoring this aspect. It’s not really primed to do anything productive.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t call out poor behavior but the way we do so should be constructive as to not breed further resentment. This goes for most everything too, not just for the issue in the OP.

it’s not that we need to call it out, we shouldn’t allow it. Everybody called out the bad behavior of hitler, it’s not like he up and stopped doing that shit.

the best way to do this is to instill it in the minds of children as they grow up. Which it seems we aren’t doing at much of any rate.

This is just a small part of creating a world that you want to live in. We can’t shut out the world or those we disapprove of, but we can contribute to the betterment of others, making the world a place we’re more more comfortable with sharing.

exactly.

yeah but that’s equivalent to shit like showering and brushing your teeth. If you don’t know how to do that shit you quite literally are a dependent.

it seems young boys have much more body issues than before (e.g mogging mewing etc) and that sucks.

this is more of a shitpost than anything to be fair.

that’s one of the ways of phrasing that statement

Hrm, I’m not sure there. I’d say it’s closer to just not knocking them down so often. Most of the time, men and women can build themselves up.

when they have a proper conceptualization and understanding of the world, absolutely, the problem is that we don’t exactly raise them with one. This is the reason the manosphere is so prominent.

The problem is not individuals being assholes and raping people for no reason, the problem is a lack of instilling a good social culture in boys as they grow leading them to be primed to be a good person in society. Like i said currently we just kinda shit them out of hs and into college or not, and that’s literally it. There’s nothing to be interested in or excited about. If you’re a woman growing up in modern society there’s a lot to be interested in, college enrollments are up, more women are getting educated, more women are going into large businesses and managerial rolls, there’s a lot of perceived social progress there.

the problem is men don’t really have anything of the sort to care about. Everything they previously had to care about was removed and reinstated with something counter intuitive to what it proposed. We haven’t replaced what no longer exists, there is just a void here, and it’s no surprise that men enroll in college less, pursue higher education less, and are generally worse off in life (higher rates of suicide etc)

I think you’ve touched on the problem at hand here, i think the part you don’t quite realize is that this is a secondary knock on effect of the prior (what i just mentioned) this is all to be expected as a result from something of this caliber.

i think right now one of the best strategies that we have is to build up the capability of being a good role model, and in general being a good person in boys/young men, it’s a little bit reminiscent of previous norms, but we don’t really have many options here. One thing that is bound to be pretty effective here is utilizing them to be a social group leader of their domain (mostly other men)

yeah, we need to work towards building something that solves this problem sooner rather than later, if you’re a parent now, you should be figuring this out now, and if you want to be a parent, figure it out before you have children.

yeah, and i don’t think that makes it or him “normal” either. He’s an exceptionally terrible human being. That has managed to be the kingpin of an entire attention economy for years now.

In some regards he is special That’s why Romania is putting him through the ringer, it’s why the extradition might actually happen.

i think even this line of discussion is partially reductive on a fundamental level. It’s an important one to have so i don’t want to discount it here, but i think it’s probably more important that we focus on the issue specifically rather than how what we’re currently doing is bad and how it could possibly be negatively influential. Is pretty redundant when we all know that it’s just not going to do what we need it to be doing.

Granted some people won’t know that, and that’s why we’re talking about it now, but i feel like it’s just such an easy conversation to have comparatively to this one. I’m surprised that this isn’t a more regular topic of discussion, though i guess people probably dont think very hard about it.

you should probably write up a “if you don’t like this shit you shouldn’t talk to me” copy and paste to cut down on this somehow.

you mean to tell me that most people don’t believe the majority of the things you do? That’s weird.

im sorry sex trafficking isn’t special?

What would you expect from a “role model”? Just a person who does good for its own sake? Doing so would be something that’s not publicized, so it’s hard to show off good behavior.

people that are the stereotypical mr rogers of the real world. We really do just need more people that are such good people that just they instill goodness in others on a fundamental level. That and people willing to spend time educating others.

if you aren’t a stereo-typically perfect individual, that’s fine, you almost certainly have something useful that you can teach someone young that’s around you.

bluey is great, but it’s only one example in a sea of no ships. It’s also aussie, so it’s not even super culturally relevant to most of the west, it’s also focused at really young children.

Beyond young children you have shows like, full house, which is literally fucking ancient.

What makes it so hard for a lot of men is, that it’s a willful surrender of privileges. Men lost a ton of privileges over the last decades and it takes a bit of reflection to understand that these privileges were never legitimate in the first place. Instead, they frame women’s rights as weakness, because it directly contradicts their narrative of a strong man.

the important distinction here is that these privileges were the reason that men did what they did. Without them now men don’t really have an overall driving force through life. Without the expectation of “being a strong man” they literally have nothing to live for in society.

in my defense, bears can’t speak so.