If the average user has to interact with a command line interface, EVER, as anything but a truly desperate last resort, with someone holding their hand the whole way through, they’re probably gonna give up and never wanna look back.
A lot of people barely know how to copy and paste, or don’t even know what the phrase “right click” means.
When I did some work from home training a year ago, I looked like a goddamn wizard for knowing how to manage browser tabs and put folders on my bookmarks bar.
TLDR: It needs to just work for people that don’t know jack shit about using a computer, which in a lot of cases it just doesn’t.
This is all very true, but I feel like the society has also failed to properly teach basic IT to the general population. Personal computers are a massively used tool in today’s everyday life and work. It deeply concerns me that even the “tech generation”, i.e. gen z I guess, generally don’t even understand what files and directories are. Generic boomers are even worse because they just never learned anything, even touch screen UIs. These people can just about get by now, but I’m not so sure anymore when we go forward a decade or two when we rely on IT services more and more.
I feel like there was a very short window where PCs were just easy enough to use that most people had one, but the OS experience was just complex enough, with things breaking frequently enough, that you had to learn some basics out of necessity.
Like , I’m a 100% not an IT guy - but I know all sorts of shit that seems like it should be common knowledge, but isn’t. Any time I manage to get something in our IT and software environment functioning at work, or explain the chain of events to some catastrophe based on evidence in our software logs, and I get talked about like some kind of wunderkind, it is frustrating more than anything else.
I’m not some IT genius, I’m your average asshole who knows some basics about the tools we use in 99.9% of the work we do. Chances are if there were more of said assholes we wouldn’t run into the problems I address in the first place. But admittedly, perhaps some of that knowledge/ability to think that way comes from having to figure out shit like why my DOS game wouldn’t work in 1995, or what the fuck that purple monkey Mom downloaded a few years later was actually doing.
Ugh - sorry, this turned into a rant, this kind of shit has been top of mind recently…
Yeah, I am kinda the opposite - I’m halfway through a master’s in software engineering and I work in the field, using Linux at work and Windows on my own PC.
Still, as I never use e.g. Word or other office programs I don’t know jack shit about them. But as one of the family “computer guys” I am constantly asked to help with stuff that I rarely use or even have never used before. If they had the ability to think in the correct way, like how you just mentioned you do, they would be able to resolve at least 70% of the problems pretty effortlessly. Society definitely needs to teach these basics better so that people could just google their problem and deal with it.
Search engines are out there! Also, it is very much proven from personal experience that older generations can troubleshoot issues themselves when I’m not available. They just tell me after the fact.
I helped my neighbor “fix/restore” her computer… which she had already paid someone to backup her files and clean. I showed her how to plug in her external hdd to access her documents, re-signed into her mail client, and re-installed MS Office. And that was pretty much it
While she was looking for her MSOffice product key, I did a quick “systeminfo” in the command prompt; I was just curious about her hardware. She saw the terminal and of course made the comment of “you must be a programmer”… I absolutely am not. I have literally gotten to printf (“Hello, World!”) in C and moved on to another hobby lol
Some people really just don’t mess with computers at all. Of course it seems silly from my perspective to not know how an external hdd works, but I mean… there’s plenty of silly shit I don’t know either. Doesn’t matter, she was stoked to have her system back up like she wanted. But yeah, that was my most recent encounter with someone who really struggled with computers. No shame, cause she surely knows a lot about some stuff that I’m clueless about.
I did install Firefox with ublock just for my own use while I was there, because I refused to use Edge. Maybe she’ll keep it
Not only are there people who don’t mess with computers. There are also people who are just never online. They don’t have internet or even a smartphone to speak of.
They live in a different reality compared to us techies. And they get around just fine.
And no, I am not just talking about the Amish, but people we encounter in our daily lives.
They can be wood workers, plumbers, mechanics even welders, and not ever touch a computer in their lives.
Linuxians need to remember to get out of their bubble sometimes, big parts of the world don’t revolve around computers.
I find this differentiation difficult. Most companies run Windows computers in their non IT office functions. The ones that don’t mostly use Mac OS.
Given that any reasonable company IT is not allowing any User modifications on the systems and distributes white listed applications only, it would be perfectly viable to run Linux on every company computer. If something is broken, the User would call IT or write a ticket. No sane IT department lets 55 year old Jane from accounting anywhere near a command prompt.
Customizeability does not make an OS “industrial”. 99% of the Users in an industry setting are not supposed to customize anything on their computer aside from maybe the desktop background.
Most companies allow users to customize their machines however they want outside of a few restricted and locked down settings.
Hell I’m looking at a laptop issued to me by one of the world’s largest automotive companies and I can change any setting I want outside of some specific security settings.
What point are you trying to make? That if I can’t customize absolutely everything on it, then being able to customize most things without using the command line isn’t valuable?
The point i am trying to make is that you are not being allowed to do any of these, if the company has any reasonable security in place.
So the settings you can change are things anyone can change on a windows machines just as easily using the GUI. So customizeability by the end user is not a characteristic that makes an OS “industrial”. Linux distros are not “industrial” because they are customizeable by the end user and most companies run windows computers outside the IT and backend, even though a linux system could do the same without any problem for the end user.
I never claimed that Linux was industrial because it can be changed by the end user, I claimed that it’s industrial because there are basic things that any normal power user would want to do that can only be done via command line.
Tbf if Linux is already installed and running on the computer you really don’t need to use the CLI at all now. And if Windows isn’t installed on the computer your average user couldn’t figure out either. This is more a matter of Windows usually coming pre-installed and configured.
Sure, Mint (and other distros) do exactly that. But the installation part will always be out of reach for most users. That part is scary to them. Ergo we need beginner friendly distros preinstalled on devices to get a higher market share.
This.
Despite majority of Linux distributions now having Calamares or similar installer (which your grandma can effortlessly navigate and successfully install Linux, should you be around and tell her she’s doing amazing), the mere fear of going on step to the side and “destroying computer forever” is paralyzing for them.
They are scared of anything that can make any change in the system, they feel a mere mortal can’t understand it, and they don’t bother.
Which is why preinstalled is the only option.
As per usage, the common scenarios already don’t require any terminal. Your family member who needs to just surf the Web, edit documents, watch media and play some games will NEVER face Linux terminal.
If the average user has to interact with a command line interface, EVER, as anything but a truly desperate last resort, with someone holding their hand the whole way through, they’re probably gonna give up and never wanna look back.
A lot of people barely know how to copy and paste, or don’t even know what the phrase “right click” means.
When I did some work from home training a year ago, I looked like a goddamn wizard for knowing how to manage browser tabs and put folders on my bookmarks bar.
TLDR: It needs to just work for people that don’t know jack shit about using a computer, which in a lot of cases it just doesn’t.
This is all very true, but I feel like the society has also failed to properly teach basic IT to the general population. Personal computers are a massively used tool in today’s everyday life and work. It deeply concerns me that even the “tech generation”, i.e. gen z I guess, generally don’t even understand what files and directories are. Generic boomers are even worse because they just never learned anything, even touch screen UIs. These people can just about get by now, but I’m not so sure anymore when we go forward a decade or two when we rely on IT services more and more.
I feel like there was a very short window where PCs were just easy enough to use that most people had one, but the OS experience was just complex enough, with things breaking frequently enough, that you had to learn some basics out of necessity.
Like , I’m a 100% not an IT guy - but I know all sorts of shit that seems like it should be common knowledge, but isn’t. Any time I manage to get something in our IT and software environment functioning at work, or explain the chain of events to some catastrophe based on evidence in our software logs, and I get talked about like some kind of wunderkind, it is frustrating more than anything else.
I’m not some IT genius, I’m your average asshole who knows some basics about the tools we use in 99.9% of the work we do. Chances are if there were more of said assholes we wouldn’t run into the problems I address in the first place. But admittedly, perhaps some of that knowledge/ability to think that way comes from having to figure out shit like why my DOS game wouldn’t work in 1995, or what the fuck that purple monkey Mom downloaded a few years later was actually doing.
Ugh - sorry, this turned into a rant, this kind of shit has been top of mind recently…
Yeah, I am kinda the opposite - I’m halfway through a master’s in software engineering and I work in the field, using Linux at work and Windows on my own PC.
Still, as I never use e.g. Word or other office programs I don’t know jack shit about them. But as one of the family “computer guys” I am constantly asked to help with stuff that I rarely use or even have never used before. If they had the ability to think in the correct way, like how you just mentioned you do, they would be able to resolve at least 70% of the problems pretty effortlessly. Society definitely needs to teach these basics better so that people could just google their problem and deal with it.
At that point they’ll adapt.
They are scared of technology, but when forced to interact with it by themselves, when nobody’s there to help, they learn very quick.
It just requires some short stress and bare minimum effort.
Says someone who grew up with computers.
Yes, and often had no one to help.
Search engines are out there! Also, it is very much proven from personal experience that older generations can troubleshoot issues themselves when I’m not available. They just tell me after the fact.
I helped my neighbor “fix/restore” her computer… which she had already paid someone to backup her files and clean. I showed her how to plug in her external hdd to access her documents, re-signed into her mail client, and re-installed MS Office. And that was pretty much it
While she was looking for her MSOffice product key, I did a quick “systeminfo” in the command prompt; I was just curious about her hardware. She saw the terminal and of course made the comment of “you must be a programmer”… I absolutely am not. I have literally gotten to printf (“Hello, World!”) in C and moved on to another hobby lol
Some people really just don’t mess with computers at all. Of course it seems silly from my perspective to not know how an external hdd works, but I mean… there’s plenty of silly shit I don’t know either. Doesn’t matter, she was stoked to have her system back up like she wanted. But yeah, that was my most recent encounter with someone who really struggled with computers. No shame, cause she surely knows a lot about some stuff that I’m clueless about.
I did install Firefox with ublock just for my own use while I was there, because I refused to use Edge. Maybe she’ll keep it
Not only are there people who don’t mess with computers. There are also people who are just never online. They don’t have internet or even a smartphone to speak of.
They live in a different reality compared to us techies. And they get around just fine.
And no, I am not just talking about the Amish, but people we encounter in our daily lives.
They can be wood workers, plumbers, mechanics even welders, and not ever touch a computer in their lives.
Linuxians need to remember to get out of their bubble sometimes, big parts of the world don’t revolve around computers.
I find this differentiation difficult. Most companies run Windows computers in their non IT office functions. The ones that don’t mostly use Mac OS.
Given that any reasonable company IT is not allowing any User modifications on the systems and distributes white listed applications only, it would be perfectly viable to run Linux on every company computer. If something is broken, the User would call IT or write a ticket. No sane IT department lets 55 year old Jane from accounting anywhere near a command prompt.
Customizeability does not make an OS “industrial”. 99% of the Users in an industry setting are not supposed to customize anything on their computer aside from maybe the desktop background.
This is utterly false.
Most companies allow users to customize their machines however they want outside of a few restricted and locked down settings.
Hell I’m looking at a laptop issued to me by one of the world’s largest automotive companies and I can change any setting I want outside of some specific security settings.
So you are saying, that you can install and uninstall any software by yourself?
You can access the company network, and network drives without any sandbox?
You can install or remove browser plugins?
You can create or remove local users with custom access rights and gain administrator rights for your local installation?
You can put any program you like into the autostart and quit any processes you like?
You can install drivers for any periphal hardware you are connecting and you can mount any external drive you want?
What point are you trying to make? That if I can’t customize absolutely everything on it, then being able to customize most things without using the command line isn’t valuable?
The point i am trying to make is that you are not being allowed to do any of these, if the company has any reasonable security in place.
So the settings you can change are things anyone can change on a windows machines just as easily using the GUI. So customizeability by the end user is not a characteristic that makes an OS “industrial”. Linux distros are not “industrial” because they are customizeable by the end user and most companies run windows computers outside the IT and backend, even though a linux system could do the same without any problem for the end user.
I never claimed that Linux was industrial because it can be changed by the end user, I claimed that it’s industrial because there are basic things that any normal power user would want to do that can only be done via command line.
Tbf if Linux is already installed and running on the computer you really don’t need to use the CLI at all now. And if Windows isn’t installed on the computer your average user couldn’t figure out either. This is more a matter of Windows usually coming pre-installed and configured.
Guess that’s what happens when you live in an echo chamber, you think end thinking the world thinks the same way you do.
Sure, Mint (and other distros) do exactly that. But the installation part will always be out of reach for most users. That part is scary to them. Ergo we need beginner friendly distros preinstalled on devices to get a higher market share.
This. Despite majority of Linux distributions now having Calamares or similar installer (which your grandma can effortlessly navigate and successfully install Linux, should you be around and tell her she’s doing amazing), the mere fear of going on step to the side and “destroying computer forever” is paralyzing for them.
They are scared of anything that can make any change in the system, they feel a mere mortal can’t understand it, and they don’t bother.
Which is why preinstalled is the only option.
As per usage, the common scenarios already don’t require any terminal. Your family member who needs to just surf the Web, edit documents, watch media and play some games will NEVER face Linux terminal.