I fucking hate these shitheads, I was arguing with one earlier and no matter how many facts I gave him with proper sources he just refused to actually show any kind of respect
Same goes for tankies.
You cant logic someone out of a position they didnt logic themselves into.
They believe in this horseshit because they want to, not because they think it makes any sense. They believe in it because they are scared, stupid and confused.
I don’t try to defend them, fuck them, but after having so many arguments with tankies on lemmy I simply came to a conclusion that if I crticise ruzzia or China and someone comes to defense to them with well known propaganda “arguments” I just call them a bitchass tankie and block them
I remember when the whole Hexbeargate thing happened, one tankie accused a user here of being ableist for using a relatively (in my opinion) inoffensive word (it wasn’t a slur, but considering that one of the server owners found it offensive too, I’m not going to say what word it was here). You know, while defending the leaders who executed people for being disabled.
I still don’t quite understand who tankies are tbh, other than that they support/follow communism
Typically the word refers to communists that are pro-authoritarian, pro-military force, and some amount of bizarrely nationalist.
The word is also, confusingly, used to describe all communists (by people that don’t like communists) and several other subcategories. Really, you can’t ever guess how someone means it when you see them say it. Some people self-describe as tankie, either because they fully agree with the term, or because people call them that anyways.
On lemmy, 90% of the time, “tankie” just literally means “someone from lemmygrad or hexbear”, which is kinda fairly earned, because that is where all the pro-authoritarian, pro-military force, bizarrely nationalist communists hang out, but to be clear, not all of the people in those communities are like that.
Also they hate being defined this way. They will ramble for hours about how “anti-authoritarian” isn’t real or is counter productive, and more like that. While spamming weird left unity emojis every time someone mentions anarchism…
The word is also, confusingly, used to describe all communists (by people that don’t like communists) and several other subcategories.
Which is hilariously ironic given the term was created by communists
so it isn’t necessarily bad when someone is just communist right? but obviously the problems start when they’re pro authoritarian and shit
If you want my opinion, the biggest keystone flaw in their thinking is being so ready to support/defend any nation that is or has ever described itself as communist. There is a lot of toxicity from nationalism that leads to things like pro-authoritarianism and advocating military force, and you can see it from nationalists whether they are communist or not.
Eta: But no, I don’t think this kinda stuff is inherent to communism. I think it is common in people who crave the validity of state-backed communism more than they are willing to scrutinize the history and peoples involved with the states they are supporting
I see, I think I understand a little better now
You might find this helpful
https://medium.com/international-workers-press/misconceptions-about-communism-2e366f1ef51f
They really don’t tbh, they like having the image of communism, but they support totalirian, brutal regimes like Ruzzia, China and North Korea. While all three like acting and saying they are communist, they aren’t.
Russia hasn’t been pretending to be communist/socialist since 1991.
China isn’t communist either.
But who will tell that to tankies?
Whaaaaat??? A nation with a stock market (=> workers don’t own the means of production) AND with billionaires isn’t communist?
Next you’re telling me North Korea isn’t a democratic republic.
Isn’t it a 1 party “democracy”, where the party in control is the Chinese Communist Party?
Isn’t it easier for me to just Google this rather than ask strangers on Lemmy?
right, its just a little hard for me to distinguish
Do yourself a favor and actually visit the scary tankie websites and see for yourself. Any information you’ll get from either sides will be biased, especially in this com.
basically someone with communist political views except that they support totalitarianism and will say good things about governments such as ussr and china despite never having been there
An old friend of mine eventually revealed himself to be a transphobe. He also revealed that he thought that you could get AIDS from toilet seats. Toted himself as an “enlightened spiritualist and intellectual”.
The reality is that transphobes are literally too stupid to reason with.
no way someone unironically thinks that 😭😭😭
Thought he was joking at first, too, but, no, he honestly believed that. I did end up saying “You know that was debunked years ago, right…?” So I don’t know if he’s changed his mind on it.
But he’s also an El×n M×sk fanboy, so make of that what you will.
We are no longer friends. For obvious reasons.
the toilet seat thing was a big conspiracy pre-internet, I taught sex Ed in the early 2000s and it was part of the curriculum that it wasn’t possible
I mean, technically I’m sure you could get AIDS from a toilet seat.
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The planet is literally burning and the global wealth divide is growing more rapidly by the second, but they’re convinced the real problems are vaccines (yes, still) and not enough dead trans people.
but think about the children!!!
I do. The children who live in poverty. We should take all the best dollar bills from the rich and use it to house the homeless and feed the starving. Yay or nay?
but they’re convinced the real problems are vaccines
I don’t think that’s a conservative thing, just a general lives-under-a-rock thing.
and not enough dead trans people.
And that’s the real issue for me, these people want my brother dead just because he is trans. He hasn’t hurt anyone by being trans, they hate him simply for who he is.
I don’t think libertarians are at all concerned about the global wealth divide. Most capitalists prefer to enrich the top 1%, both libertarians and conservatives.
They are not interested in facts and logic, they are interested in wearing you down until you give up and/or feel worse about yourself. They are not arguing in good faith, and they are not worth your time or mental effort.
Was about to post this myself.
Same shit different target
But not really. It’s just more of the same old Othering. It’s a tale as old as time, and I’m genuinely tired of it.
yeah, true
The more people feel attacked for their view the less they will let go of it. This is why 1on1 in multiple calm conversations you have the best odds of convincing these people. Also don’t argue with logic appeal to their emotional side. People will understand better if you bring themselves into the position. Don’t expect one conversation to change their mind it can only kickstart change.
Some people, regardless of how far their views are, can have those views changed.
Some people, regardless of how close their views are, cannot have those views changed.
“Changing their minds” is always an incomplete solution to prejudice. It should be attempted, but cannot “solve” the issue culturally.
Education could solve this issue, but the so-called “culture war” makes it increasingly difficult.
Long term, yes, I won’t deny it.
Excuse me if this is kinda morbid, but there are people who will never change their minds, and educating the next generation that replaces them to be better after they die is slow.
What is really needed, as soon as possible, is robust legal protections and rights, any way those can be acquired.
That’s so true. You gotta throw in some questions to make them dig deeper. People can’t resist a good question. They need to know! Frame up a good one and you have sold them. Just one good question and then walk away and leave the silence to echo with that question.
don’t argue with logic appeal to their emotional side.
I love the irony of this 😈 just don’t ever let them know you’re trying to convince them with their feelings instead of facts!
The thing is this whole transgender or all bigotry discussions are emotional to begin with. Even the rational sounding arguments are just emotional appeals. What you do is you make emotional appeals that also sound logical.
I don’t think it’s possible to have a significant impact on transphobia on the internet purely via debate and text. I do think it’s very possible to have a substantial impact in real life just be being a visible trans person out in public life interacting with people.
A lot of people have never once in their life had a conversation with a trans person. It’s a lot harder to weaponize someone’s existence when they become a fixture in your life. It also gives you an opportunity to occasionally share some of your struggle with people and educate them in a more direct way, but I think the former is often more valuable.
A lot of people have never once in their life had a conversation with a trans person. It’s a lot harder to weaponize someone’s existence when they become a fixture in your life.
I saw this happen in real time at a previous job. An FtM trans person was hired to work in a very male-dominated industry, in a deep red state. There was some grumbling at first, but the dude turned out to be really good at his job, which had everyone treating him like “one of the guys” after a month.
I’ve learned a bit about trans life and issues from boards like these. The problem is that people assume that you know everything, and making a bad assumption is a personal attack.
So learning about trans issues is this annoying game of: put my foot in my mouth, get piled on by a bunch of pissed off internet commenters, try to engage so I can learn something, wade through the vitriol to find the one or two people not putting words in my mouth, learn a new thing.
It’s exhausting and makes me not want to try most of the time.
That’s an unfortunately side-effect of living in a particularly politically charged time. The internet in particular is an awful place to explore these topics as an outsider, because you can’t read almost any kind of context, tone, or intention.
Think of it like getting into cigars online (or any community). You join a cigar forum and lurk a whole bunch, and only after you’ve learned how things work do you try to make your own post. You don’t just sign up and be like “Cohibas suck, and Cubans are overrated” - you’ve got to build up some goodwill first, lol
Absolutely. Just to piggy back, number one: bigotry is almost always an emotional reaction (facts barely enter into it), and number two: people rarely change their minds in real-time. Instead, they have an interaction (or usually several) and then, very privately and imperceptibly – even to themselves – start to challenge their previous assumptions when no one is looking at their faces.
That’s not to say that facts don’t matter, but if facts aren’t behind your opinion in the first place, challenging them won’t change much.
And this is why I keep telling the “you just have to vote harder!” liberals that they have no idea who they are dealing with. You cannot possibly win them over with “better ideas”. There is no “marketplace of ideas”. You cannot give them unlimited free speech because “thise ideas have to be in the open to be challenged”. NONE of it works because they are not human beings capable of thought or reason.
they are not human beings capable of thought or reason.
Not that I don’t agree entirely with everything else you’ve written. The left routinely has this severe problem where they’re unable to acknowledge people for who they are and out of natural idealism convince themselves that if the opposition desires something harmful, it must only be because they don’t understand they’re doing harm.
Therefore, all one must do to combat evil is to go, “nooo, stop, you’re going to make someone sad!” and after that doesn’t work, they’re out of ideas so they just keep trying the golden rule over and over.
But holy shit, dude. They can be vicious. They can even be dangerous enough to pose an unacceptable threat to life. They’re still human.
Not if they reject humanity itself.
You come off like the kind of person who would laugh at a hanging, and by your own metric, I would be forced to label you inhuman on that basis. I’m going to refuse because otherwise, we’re just playing No True Scotsman with our own species. The biggest problem with people is that they are people.
Okay then, what sort of True Scotsman thinks its okay to punish, torture or kill others for simply wanting to live their life as they want and without harming others in any way? What Scotsman is that?
Comments like this are what the normal conservative gets pointed at, to show them that liberal ideas are dangerous. So thanks for that.
You are really concerned about what a conservative thinks?? Show me a case where they ever said “oh liberals have a great idea here!” The most you’ll ever find is pointing to Zell Miller, saying “SEE?? HE WANTS A WAR TOO!!!” Nobody should ever give one single flying fuck what a goddamn fascist rightoid thinks. If you do you’re in the wrong perr group.
Are they not our countrymen, colleagues, friends, and family? I was raised conservative and I know they can change. Stop making it more difficult, I’m working over here.
GFL
No amount of logic and reasoning can convince someone to develop a sense of empathy.
I’m assuming you mean that thing where people can imagine what another person feels?
I have a hypothesis: they do imagine what others feel, but they imagine it wrong. For instance, a transphobe might try to imagine what it’s like to be trans, but the closest to that they can get is doing it for shits and giggles or for perverted reasons, so that’s what they think it must be like.
Of course, most logical evidence would disprove that, but empathy (feelings) trump facts to some people.
That’s them imagining it how THEY’D feel if they ‘chose’ to become trans, ie projection. I think empathy has to have the correct feelings.
I can definitely see some transphobes thinking that, like some I talked to unironically think all lgbtq people are pedophiles, and wouldn’t give me an explanation other than “they just are”
You’d think something so deeply ingrained in human nature like empathy would have a stronger effect on people’s beliefs. And yet, even though empathy is logical, as a rising tide lifts all boats, there are those who still choose hate.
They do have empathy, for their in group.
Those in the out group don’t deserve empathy in their opinion.
It’s a really fucked way of looking at the world.
Edit: Of course how they define their in group is heavily conditional and likely to change on a whim at their earliest convenience.
Similarly, people who are principally empathetic and emotional first (not all are) really struggle with reason and logic when it comes to establishing boundaries. They are pathologically afraid of causing offence.
And they’ll never develop a sense of empathy in an environment that emphasizes r— and domination.
Never argue with stupid people. They drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
My favorite quote; for the people that take it as a complement.
You can’t fix stupid. You’re likely dealing with a religious nut. There is no hope for logic when the person believes in magic and invisible bullshit.
Something something chess with a pigeon
“I think you’re wrong and I’m right; therefore you’re wrong and I’m right”
“Facts? Nah I don’t like those”
“also here’s me spreading lies about trans people and presenting them as facts”
“Oh you gave me facts? I’m going to ignore them because if empirical information would make me change my opinion I already would have changed it. I just want to hate trans people!!!”
Persuasion is difficult. For most people, facts and logic just don’t matter. It is a matter of feeling.
If anyone is interested, I’d suggest looking into street epistemology on YouTube. They offer excellent examples of how to use the Socratic method to help people question their own beliefs, but also not feel like you are attacking or judging them for their beliefs.
I’ll link one: https://youtu.be/A-M1EyhcRS8?si=td3mrstOSap60uJX
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/A-M1EyhcRS8?si=td3mrstOSap60uJX
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Thanks, 👍
Someone posted a video on SE the other day and it was really cool 😎
Yeah man. The channels “cordial curiosity” and “Anthony Magnobasco” are the best in my opinion. They often tend to be about religion, but the skills are applicable in basically any kind of topic.
Transphobes when they are suggested that humans should be treated as humans:
“But muh chromosomes!”
Yeah because when I’m checkin’ some fine thang out at the club, the first thing I wanna ask them is “mmmmm, c’mere and let me see them genetic markers…”
Ain’t nothing sexier than an electron microscope in your pocket!
Even if they are so worried about chromosomes, the existence of intersex people completely voids the binary. They don’t care about reality, they just want to back up their shitty position
Debate people with your wit. Debate fascists with your fist. Cure people with your head. Cure fascists with your lead.
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ayo what
Probably don’t fuck them, they should go fuck themselves instead. Only fuck people that you like and that appreciate you!
Can we not have more of them please
