I don’t like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.
Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews. He’ll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn’t a straight cisgender male back here at home.
A vote is not an unconditional endorsement, and “sticking it to leftists” and “refusing to support genocide” (that’s not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way – a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.
I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I’ll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
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Yo you kids can’t behave, I will look this now, it’s Easter and I don’t want to have this burning here
Do I hate the two party system? Yes. Do I hate the fact that centrists like Joe Liberman who literally killed universal healthcare in the US are revered and embraced by Biden’s party? Yes. Do I hate the fact that Democrats are always dismissive of liberal ideas and often act like complete jackasses and can’t admit that when Obama was running there were a ton of Clinton supporters that didn’t vote for Obama in a blatant act of pure hypocrisy? Yes.
Do I fucking hate Nazis and Fascist? Fuck yes.
Hence why even if I don’t like the Democrat running, I’ll vote for them and honestly, Biden isn’t too sucktastic. Except for kyrsten sinema, she can fuck right the hell off forever.
Do I hate everything going on in this country? Yes. Do I still keep voting to have the same shit happen over and over? Yes.
Do I hate the fact that centrists like Joe Liberman who literally killed universal healthcare in the US are revered and embraced by Biden’s party?
Joe Biden explicitly said he would veto any legislation involving universal healthcare. You oppose universal healthcare, but you’re hiding behind the spectre of “centrists”.
I hate how so many critics talk about they when criticising a political party. Get involved. Run for local office, become a part of the inside of the party. How can Democrats ever represent younger leftists, when so few of the younger leftists let their voice be heard outside of anonymous forums?
Yeah lemme get like $2,000,000 so I can go run for office.
Campaigns don’t tend to be self-funded.
Also, trump appointed 3 supreme court justices, who will be there FOR LIFE.
Assassinate'em, you say?No, just kidding.
I’m just someone watching from Europe, getting a little concerned 😔
Thanks to leftists who wouldn’t vote
Liberals would rather blame leftists than actually fight fascism.
See: Weimar Republic
If you look at how many times liberals staged a coup and put a dictator in charge because a country decided to democratically elect a vaguely leftist president you start to realize they much prefer fascism to leftism. Now they’re just doing the same thing domestically.
You could say similar about our leftist history. How many countries did we instigate revolutions in to overthrow even somewhat democratic governments?
Radicals will rationalize anything including putting Trump back into office.
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
That logic doesn’t follow. We used insurgencies to overthrow leftist democracies in favor of fascism, so leftists something something?
Leftist here. What are you doing to “fight,” brother?
What would you recommend?
There are folks preparing for armed insurrection. I would say there are probably enough of those folks already, I’m not saying they’re wrong, just that it’s easy to think of that as a default solution and miss the much more important foundation building work.
Collective disaster preparedness is indistinguishable from preparing the logistical side of a revolution. The art of was says that for every person on the field of battle, 7 are in support.
The idea of the revolutionary with a gun is attractive, especially for those of us socialized male. But there are a lot of critical roles that are revolutionary and are not that. In a lot of ways the glorification of the militant serves the state by making the resiatence easier to kill. Focus on the things that are harder to justify killing people over and harder for feds to figure out how to disrupt. The armed part of the Panthers were used to justify the attacks, but the breakfast program is why they were a real threat.
My favorite example from the past of a revolutionary project I worked on was our local GDC’s food security committee. We started with a shared pantry for members. This allowed some members to engage in riskier things like striking because they knew they’d have food covered. Other times it just supported people through hard times. We did some guerilla gardening on some abandoned plots. I learned to forage. Eventually it grew in to a few folks regularly bringing canned food to houseless camps and providing them material support.
Houseless camps are a threat to the stability of the state. They are necessarily a lawless space which threaten the legitimacy of the state.
The biggest lesson we need to take away from the Syrian civil war is that whoever can fulfil the needs of the people becomes the regional power. The state will control resource (like food) to control people. If you can disrupt their ability to control those resources or provide alternatives, then the state has less power to leverage. Simultaneously, fascist terrorists will attack the infrastructure in order to inflict suffering and control people. In both cases, providing things like food to comrade makes resistence possible and undermines the legitimacy of an authoritarian state.
A state that cannot fulfil the needs of its people loses legitimacy. But the other pillar, aside from fulfilling needs, is the legitimacy of the infrastructure of violence. My other favorite project was an independent journalism and public records activism collective. Lucy Parsons Labs OpenOversight is a plarform for police accountability. Since police ultimately will never be held accountable, pointing this out weakens the state’s ability to leverage them without losing legitimacy with the people.
So erode the narrative of the state and build it’s replacement. If you read Che Guevara’s Guerilla Warfare or any book like that, you’ll realize that the literal fighting part is probably the smallest and least import part of a revolution. The fate of the revolution is decided long before anyone picks up a gun.
So go talk to your neighbors, find out what they need. Organize with comrades. Join food not bombs. Push local disaster prep groups to support houseless camps, since it’s also indistinguishable from supporting people after a major natural disaster. If you do all the legal and easily justifiable things then if a fed infiltrates your group they just end up doing a lot of work without being able to disrupt anything.
Finally, go read as much as you can about the Rojava. Learn about Libertarian Communalism and think about how that translates to the US context.
To do any of this you need to organize. Start a book club or join one. Join FNB. Find other people. Talk to your neighbors. You would be amazed how many normal people actually want radical change. I’ve talked to liberals who are really radicals who haven’t figured out how to make it actually work. Don’t discount normal folks, because revolution is impossible without their involvement.
Edit: a note on foraging, one of the critical things for a revolutionary guerilla force is soap. Most US cities have abundant horse chestnuts (buckeyes or conkers). These are natural soap and can be used for laundry detergent, hand soap, or body soap. To anyone in an urban area, you’re welcome.
They recommend nothing at all.
Remember comrades,
-Direct action (strike, strike, strike, preferably imo, and hold ur surplus value hostage)
-Mutual aid
-Voting to ensure you can pursue the first 2 with minimal govt interference
All are acceptable avenues. All are necessary. None are mutually exclusive.
Stop pretending to be a radical leftist when you support genocide: https://midwest.social/comment/8554707
“Support genocide” in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.
Buddy, friend, gamer. It’s march. Can you bring this out in six months? There is no reason to fill everyone’s feed up like this and sow political division on the left over seven months before it’s relevant.
Plus, the pressure looks like it’s working, so a vote for Biden might be a lot more palatable then. A lot of your work might get done automatically
So many dumb Americans here not voting. Cutting off your legs so you can hold the moral high ground. Moronic.
Why is the onus on the left? How come it’s never on moderates for being such poor coalition partners that knee cap their proposals at every opportunity?
The onus is on us all to keep democracy alive.
It is on us to take all available paths towards alleviating the situation. Voting is the easiest and least u can do. Past that, theres mutual aid and direct action. Take as many paths as u can, but any and all leftward movement must be embraced.
The “moderates” u mention are the future right wing of the country. The gop is on a sinking ship. Their base is dying (of old age and at twice the rate due to covid), and the youth lean increasingly left. Our time is upon us, but right now trump represents an existential threat to life as we know it. He is a hostile foreign agent and those paths open to us will suddenly close under him.
Why are you in here cosplaying as a leftist when you support the genocide?
https://midwest.social/comment/8554707:
“Support genocide” in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.
Why is the onus on the left to vote left to promote left values? Because that’s how voting works?
I’m not sure how to answer that question. Reword it as “Why is the onus on the right to elect a right-wing candidate?” maybe to see.
Biden isn’t left, that’s why they are asking why thr DNC feels entitled to Leftist votes while refusing to concede.
Right now, voting for the current set of candidates will not support the values of the left, it will promote the values of the moderate middle. if the moderate middle wants to prevent another term of trump, they need to give real commitments to policy agendas that will convince disaffected voters to show up. Threatening them with another term of trump clearly is not working, telling them that they should be grateful for what they already got clearly is not working.
If the Democratic Party wants disaffected voters to show up, then the democrat establishment needs to work to earn those votes. If they do not then trump will win, and it will be as much their fault as the people who didn’t vote.
Sure. But it’s a two way street. Climate change is important but you don’t realistically solve it by stopping everything coal powered tomorrow. You have to gradually introduce it.
I don’t know if it’s a younger generation thing, but they’re not patient and demand change now when it’s just not realistic. Change is glacially slow. Voting in something that’s not ideal is better than voting in something completely opposite.
The more you allow that left or moderate side to win, the more the axis changes towards it, which is still a win if you’re left/moderate as it moves it away from the right. It’s this last bit some people don’t understand.
I don’t know how to tell you, but dude, your country (and many others) is literally on fire every year. Even if we did something very drastic, like keep up the COVID lockdowns, Florida is going to be flooded. The United States will lose towns, villages, cities, territory it will never recover. The country will be full of climate refugees. It is like a war where you can’t shoot back. I don’t know how else to put it.
How long have you been trying to reform healthcare? And it’s still not getting better, is it? Only maybe “glacially”. Trump’s regressive changes weren’t glacial. He undid half a century of alliances and trust in years. Sure, vote Biden, but voting Biden is not a complete solution, it’s not even a band aid. It’s just the saner half of the US trying to hide from the next bullet.
So no, glacial change - “slowly but surely” - won’t cut it. We need radical change, right now, and maybe we will end up with something liveable in 25 years.
This will be the most important election in the history of the united states. You have two choices, Dictator, or Democracy. A no vote is a vote AGAINST Democracy.
Every fucking election in my lifetime has been “the most important in history”
You all have cried wolf too many times. If you get eaten, it’s liberals fault.
I hear this every single election.
Dems - “democracy is at stake! THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION IN YOUR LIFE”
Me - *Holds nose and votes for the lesser evil"
Dems - “thanks guys that was close” Proceeds to sit around with a thumb in their collective asshole for 4 years.
…
Dems - “Democracy is at stake! REALLY guys - THIS is the most important election ever!”
It’s fucking exhausting. If the Dems really wanted people to come out and vote, they would spend less time begging for our votes, and more time representing our collective interests.
You’d think if they really believed their own bs that democracy was at stake, they would do everything to court votes in swing states, such as, idk, the enormous Arab population in Michigan? Biden clearly prioritizes dead Gazan babies over “democracy.”
I hear this every single election.
-
Because as we move into the future with a larger population and worse environmental destruction, the stakes become greater.
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Because we’ve been on the verge of losing our democracy for a couple decades now. I’m almost 50, we’ve been on the verge since the presidency was taken from Al Gore. It was not this way before that in my lifetime.
You think one election is going to take a nation on the brink to being in safe harbors? This is a battle for democracy that occurs over multiple elections, why is that so hard to understand? You can only repeat what your friends say?
Biden refused to face fascism head on during his entire term. Instead he decided to focus entirely on pleasing moderates and liberals and burning progressives and leftists at every opportunity. This is Biden’s fault.
Ya, so to punish Biden lets allow an actual fascist to take power and live under that for the rest of our lives. Genius.
If you focused all this energy you’re using to fight your fellow working class Americans against pro-corporate trash candidates and the people who vote for them we’d be in a much better position right now.
-
I hear this every single election.
Yeah, weird, it’s almost like we’ve been on a slow march towards fascism for decades and as republicans get more and more radicalised they vote for worse and worse candidates as their nominee every election… or something.
we’ve been on a slow march towards fascism for decades
Yes. Including the last three years. See the problem?
Yes?? Idk what point you’re trying to make here.
Procorporate Democrats like Biden cannot save us from fascism.
If it’s so important then why isn’t Biden doing everything he can to compromise with leftists and progressives? Dude should be standing at a podium begging us like “Please! I’m sorry I blocked the rail strike I won’t do it again. Federal workers can continue working remotely. I won’t raise the defense budget again. I will fight to block weapon shipments to Israel. Please help me.”
Or is this democracy not worth that to him?
Lol, troll.
I’m really not. The fact that it’s a legitimate question under these circumstances shows just how pathetic this whole situation is. As Jon Stewart said, if the enemy is at the gates why isn’t Biden taking it seriously?
Lmao typical DNC advertisement regurgitation. This election is not ‘the most important election in history’.
Third party of bust
You may as well be saying “MAGA or bust”.
How do you expect Trump to do as President if he wins?
You realize Trump is just the tip of the iceberg right? It’s not like once he no longer runs the MAGA crowd will disappear. What’s your plan for addressing it? Because we held our noses and elected Biden in 2020 and all he’s done is fucked around for 3 years.
Oooh no you don’t. You can’t do the shitty Manager thing and try to toss this back at me. Answer your own question.
We’ve had lots of plans, there were lots of good candidates in the 2020 primaries. They were all rejected by moderates and liberals. We had the BBB, it was rejected by moderates and liberals. We had the rail strike, it was rejected by moderates and liberals. We have proposed lots of plans. They have all been rejected. The onus is not on us to continue providing plans. Moderates and liberals need our votes to win. They don’t like our plans but refuse to provide any viable plans of their own.
I’m done making plans. If moderate and liberals want my vote they need to demonstrate it. If Biden wants my vote he needs to demonstrate it. Compromise with us or lose to MAGA. Make a choice.
Election of 1860: am i joke to u?
There won’t be another election if tRump wins. Komrad
Does Biden know that?
f there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
Hey hi, it’s me, your trans friend. And you need to put this energy towards protesting Biden instead of leftists. I honestly feel like you are low key getting trolled and missing the point?
Like, seriously, we all know “shithole countries” Trump would be worse on every single issue, including and especially Gaza. But it’s six months till the election, PLENTLY of time for a course change by Biden. Absolutely a second Trump term scares the 💩 out of me. So i appreciate where you are coming from, but until it’s November, I think pressing Dems and trusting leftists to do whats right day of is the most good y’all can do.
trusting leftists to do whats right
i can’t trust leftists because leftists are stupid. look how they lost italy, the leftists splintered and refused to work together because of petty shit which allowed the right including literal fascists to take over the government. this is the same type of dumb stuff that happens everywhere with leftists, because of their “holier than thou” attitude.
i will not leave the election’s outcome in the leftists’ hands because they always fuck it up when that’s the case. they always refuse to cooperate with the enemies of their enemy because they don’t see them as left enough, despite it being the only option to not have their long-term goals permanently blocked off, and the country always devolves into diet fascism afterwards. it has lost us many nations throughout history, so no thanks.
This is actually straight up revisionism, it was the Liberals who sided with fascists, rather than working with Leftists to stop the fascists, that directly allowed for Hitler and Mussolini to come to power.
I’m not sure what you mean by “the Liberals” but I’m not referring to pre-WW2. I’m referring to right now. The current state of Italy. The one where leftists had the government, and then completely screwed up in the face of a rising right-wing threat because they decided they don’t agree with some of the things the other leftists were doing.
Ah, fair. I am not as familiar with modern Italy, but it sounds like refusing to work together is a two-way street, though I would love to see an example of what you’re specifically referring to.
The easiest (although not best) example for Italy is the PM. The previous center-left politicians in office were by no means perfect PMs, but the left’s infighting and the ensuing breakup of the coalition of various left and center-left parties caused Draghi to resign, and the next (and current) PM is Giorgia Meloni who is an actual fascist who has on multiple occasions reminisced of the good old days with Mussolini in charge and a good economy. Nowadays with hindsight people miss the preceding leftist PMs and think they were actually pretty good after all, but it’s too late for that. The country has already started a tumble towards the right and it’d be extremely hard to get it out, especially considering that the left still is refusing to work together.
There were other factors, such as the left in Italy generally tending anti-Ukraine and the population’s concerns about immigration, as well as the right focusing a lot on anti-LGBTQ rhetoric/paranoia (Italy is a very catholic nation so this was an effective strategy), but the most important factor and the ultimate killing blow was the left breaking apart.
There’s definitely a lot more to it, than that. I’d have to research more, because historically it’s always the Liberals who refuse to work with Leftists against fascists.
Just like now with a bunch if liberals filling up my feed with vote blue no matter who bullshit.
Benjamin Netanyahu himself could be running as the democratic nominee and they’d tell me he’s better than trump.
He isn’t. Netanyahu and trump are two peas in a pod.
No.
Anyone who doesn’t vote immediately loses the right to complain for the next 4 years.
Don’t like it? Should’ve done your duty and put in a vote.
Fuck you, fence sitters
Are the fence sitters in the room with us now?
If you actually care about trump, actually fear what he will do, maybe you should do everything you can to push for policy that will get the fence sitters to show the fuck up, rather than insulting them.
Voting does not wash your hands of responsibility for actively pushing away the people you need voting with you.
Ok I’ll be voting 3rd party.
Ok, I’ll blame you as well if Trump wins
I’ll blame Biden for refusing to make material compromises with leftists and progressives in order to get the votes he needs.
I’ll blame you when the nazis legislate me and my brethren out of existence. You could have helped to stop this, but instead you decided to sit by and throw a tantrum like a fucking child.
You could help stop this by fighting Biden instead of fighting me.
a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide
Demanding people vote for genocide as a lesser of two evils is where we are at now.
Either vote for harm reduction or watch as the former president implements a final solution.
How is genocide harm reduction? Is Trump gonna genocide harder or something?
Is Trump gonna genocide harder or something?
I mean… yes… yes he would definitely support escalation of the killings. He has stated he thinks they aren’t going far enough so trump would 100% just encourage full genocide openly
Biden is at least turning on this issue, though obviously it’s way too little and too late… but he is at least reachable and is now saying there needs to be a ceasefire.
Is biden doing enough? Fuck no.
Should he step down and let other dems run? I think yes… I would feel so much better if we had a candidate who hasn’t been supporting this for as long as biden has.
But would trump be worse on this issues? Absolutely things can get so much worse…
Biden isnt turning on anything, the same day his UN reps proposed the fake ceasefire he supplied more money and bombs.
Remember Biden isn’t actually the one doing the genocide. That’s Netanyahu and the other Israeli politicians. Let’s not delete their blame by including Biden who has been putting in /some/ effort to stop it (not enough imo, but undeniably some). And remember that even if he stopped weapons shipments the day of the invasion, it wouldn’t have changed the outcome at all.
Israel has always been days or weeks away from running out of ammunition and bombs. If shipments stop the bombings would stop. They’ve reupped and reupped and Biden even bypassed Congress to continue supplying bombs.
Remember Charles Manson wasnt the one that actually did any killings, therefore he must be innocent. Biden is providing the money and weapons to kill, therefore he is responsible, and has done nothing to stop it.
He’s completely enabling it. The UN would have already stepped in if we weren’t blocking anything above saying the words, “Please Stop.”
The criminal justice system recognizes this. It charges the driver, the lookout, and the trigger puller with Felony Murder.
The UN can’t “step in” regardless, plus we let the cease fire resolution pass this time so if they could step in we’re not blocking it.
We let a non-binding resolution pass. The UN is absolutely capable of stepping in, from the Korean War to the Ivory Coast. There’s even movies about it.
The fuck you mean the UN would have “stepped in”?
Like you think the UN is going to send troops to stop Isreal??? Or you think that Israel will decide its going to comply with a resolution for the first time?
The criminal justice system recognizes this. It charges the driver, the lookout, and the trigger puller with Felony Murder.
Apples to orsnges. Do gun shop owners get charged with murder for selling guns to people who use them to commit murder? No ofc course not.
I’m talking specifically about him blocking action by the UN. And yes, Israel is not special. If they ignore a binding resolution to stop then the UN will deploy.
Oh and yes, states do charge gun shop clerks if they knowingly sell a gun to be used in a crime or knowingly make an illegal sale, such as the Leahy Law the administration is taking great pains to ignore.
As I see it, the genocide is not up for a vote since neither candidate will stop it. It’s the other issues that are up for vote.
They’ve decided to do genocide regardless of what the voters want.
They’ve decided to do genocide regardless of what the voters want.
That may be what they decided, but that is never an argument against fighting genocide. There is still a window of opportunity for that course to change, and the dire nature of this election is a part of it.
It’s a sad state of affairs, but as of now what other choice is there?
Think about it for a moment: people are opposing a genocide. Do you think if Biden called for a ceasefire or ended his support for a genocidal regime it would cost him votes?
People sure acting like that is the case the way people are opposing genocide as a valid electoral issue.
So shit, right now?: Bully the everloving fuck out of Biden and anyone supporting the genocide Israel is conducting in Gaza. Fuck them and their genocide. Make it an electoral issue. See what influence can be made between now and voting day, like a properly engaged member of a political system.
If Biden ceased supporting israel, our remaining allies would be all the more disillusioned with our fickle ass nature and our soft powers would plummet.
Guarantee you, if we had a president Sanders, 70 senators would be tripping over themselves to pass Israeli aid and overturning any of his executive orders while calling him an antisemite.
Anyone that isn’t voting for Biden is helping someone get into office that will implement wildly homophobic and transphobic policies. People in this thread are really showing their cards.
Anyone who doesn’t push for the Democratic Party to support policies that will convince those people to vote are actively doing the same. It takes two to tango, and moderates need to work with the left if they hate trump as much as they claim too.
It’s amazing that the vast majority of progressives always come around and vote for the lesser evil, yet we have to listen to this ranting every single time.
You are right that they should be pushing the Democratic establishment to do better, but there is a reason they don’t. They know that progressives are willing to make compromises, but the establishment is not.
Biden would choose Trump over a progressive candidate. We know this because he did. When the Democrats moved the first primary to South Carolina from New Hampshire, they probably threw away the NH electoral votes, and they know they will never win SC. They would rather Trump win than face another progressive challenger.
I’m a disabled veteran. I know exactly what Trump thinks of us and exactly how he fucked us last time he was in office. But I will not let myself or others be held hostage for our country to support Genocide. If you think you’re helping anyone by showing politicians they have no accountability then you’re in for a rude awakening.
“Support genocide” in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.
Under dump Eastern Europe gets trampled and the rest of Europe gets pulled into open war.
We will not teach democrats accountability by throwing our democracy down the pisser to spite them and never have another chance to vote.
And there it is! All this noise about choosing the lesser of two evils, but it truth, you support the genocide.
Why are you trying to pressure people to vote for the guy facilitating genocide, instead of for Biden to stop facilitating genocide?
The only explanations I can come up with are either that you support what he is doing, or on some level, you understand we have no influence on policy and so trying to get Biden to do things that will get people to vote for him is a waste of time.
This same shit happened when Obama did fuckall about Bush’s policies and endlessly compromised. Of course, the voters were blamed when Obama lost the house and senate, and in 2016 too.
OP explicitly states a vote for Biden isnt a vote for genocide.
Regardless, Trump would be an absolute nightmare for the Palestinians…so your argument is not in good faith and just want to invoice emotional responses.
OP recognizes the system there is right now in the US is badly flawed, but since nobody did shit about fixing it these last 4 years you have a choice of pinching your nose and swallowing bad medicine or never have a voice again.
Well in that case, I’m explicitly stating that a vote for Biden is a vote for a dog taking a crap right in your mouth…
That’s not how it works, if you vote for the guy doing a genocide, you are voting for genocide.
I am highly doubtful trump would be worse. All his rhetoric is about ending the conflict, and he was significantly more peaceful than every other president dating back to Reagan at least. He got us out of Afghanistan and didn’t start a new war, unlike every other president since Reagan.
Israel is already getting all they want from the US, you really can’t call a side participating in ethnic cleansing a lesser evil, we’re already at 100% evil.
But this misses the point, to even be posting this shows that you have no hope that Biden will stop the genocide. If you expected the democrats to listen to the people whose votes they need, you’d be telling us he’s gonna do the thing we all want and stop the genocide any day now, and begging the dems to not fuck this up.
I hope the closer we get to the election the miss obvious this becomes to everybody.
Step 1: defeat Trump Step 2: help reshape Democratic party
Because the fact is, if we don’t do step 1 first, we’ll have our work cut out for us the next four or more years just being back in ‘The Resistance’. Which you know isn’t going to make the Dems more liberal, it’s going to pull them to the right as more dissatisfied Trump voters finally peel off.
On the other hand, the more resounding of a defeat we can dish out to the GQP and MAGA, the easier it will be to send them into the wilderness to regroup politically so we can focus all of our energies on the Democratic party.
Fuck that, pass electoral reform so people can vote 3rd party with no spoiler effect and leave these dinosaur political parties in the past where they belong.
Do you think it’ll be easier or harder to get electoral reform passed if Trump is elected?
I think that the threat of losing to trump is the most powerful leverage progressives and leftists have at getting actual reformation of the party, and this election is the democrats race to lose.
So right now everyone who is pissed at Biden or the democrats, should be letting their anger known and be as loud as possible about it
We defeated Trump in 2020. Nothing changed and Biden spent his entire term catering to liberals and moderates.
Sorry if I am missing your point - did you think he’d cater to conservatives?
Lol! I expected him to make material compromises with the millions of progressives and leftists who held their nose and voted for him. The fact that you seem completely unaware of these factions Democrats depend on to win elections is just… a perfect example of how out of touch liberal and moderate voters are. They can’t win elections without our votes. They need to start acting like it.
Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.
And while we should absolutely hold his feet to the fire to pull him further left, saying “earn my vote or else” with the ‘or else’ being Trump, is not a very practical threat. Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.
If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.
How has Biden meaningfully moved America towards some form of worker ownership of the Means of Production, and away from Capitalist ownership of the Means of Production?
When will the Democrats move to the left? Will it be next election? What about the one after that? Why has this same line been tossed for decades, prevent fascism now, leftism later?
I ask this as a leftist that will probably hold my nose and vote for Biden: why on Earth do you imagine the DNC will ever move leftwards, instead of remaining liberal right-wingers?
Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but
I’m not trying to tell you what to call yourself but if you spend all your time and energy arguing against leftists instead of moderates and liberals what exactly makes you left? Call yourself whatever you like but your actions are indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal.
I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.
🙄Oh please, do tell me what material leftist victory was made by Biden. A bunch of corporate handouts? Not leftist. Passing the IRA? That was the BBB stripped of everything leftists and progressives were excited about. Maybe you’re so delusional you think blocking a rail strike is a leftist victory. Or maybe you think shipping weapons to a country committing genocide is some kind of leftist victory. Or raising the defense budget. Or forcing federal workers back to the office. Or setting Yellen and Powell on a war path against American workers.
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.
The stuff I care about was already held back four years with Biden.
Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.
Yeah I’ve heard this plenty. You realize this cuts both ways right? Moderate and liberal voters refusing to compromise with leftists and progressives is every bit the same. Why are you trying to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard?
I’m arguing with other leftists because I have hope that I can help them make the right choice strategically while countering the rampant rightwing disinfo which like it or not, that’s what you’re parroting.
Again, you’re indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal. You talk like one, you act like one, you vote like one. Regardless of what you believe you’re not doing anything that would accomplish anything we’re fighting for.
And republicans and fascists and corporations and Wall Street… hmmm but he did almost cancel a lot of student debt, but actual trying to cancel most people’s student debt was “too high”. No cracking down on predatory lending or anything. Plenty of other countries have free college, but its just too damn hard in the worlds richest country, you know jack.
Earn the vote Biden.
He can’t do it because Congress is too divided because you didn’t fucking vote.
Who didn’t vote? What senate races were reasonably within reach that people didn’t show up for? Same question for the house.
Not advocating for voting third party, but how do you genuinely plan on reshaping the democrat party, and how would this time be different, compared to the past?
This is my question too. I’m old (Gen X), and I’ve never seen the Democrats acting progressive. The last time I had hope was in 08 when I volunteered for the Obama campaign, only for him to out himself as yet another conservative wearing progressive clothes once he took office.
The correct answer is that politicians are not simply groups of “good” and “evil” people, but people acting in the interests of the US state, and by extension the wealthy Capitalists that guide it.
Democrats are not a party of positive, incremental change, even if that’s how they position themselves. They act swiftly in the direction of liberalism, and only make concessions to leftists and progressives when they become threatening, not when leftists cooperate.
Waiting and voting harder for the least worst candidates just continues their existing trends, if the Dems had overwhelming support they would continue to do the bare minimum.
It’s not a coincidence that the GOP is far more radically fascist, that’s where they get their votes! That’s why the GOP manages to do a lot of damage, because if they didn’t, they would get tossed aside for another party. They cling on with barely enough support to occasionally get elected despite Democrat majority.
This is a really contrived hypothesis and probably wishful thinking considering the current state of the world, but hear me out:
You know how the Overton window gets shifted? Rightwing voters grew a lot in the US and Democrats had to get more to the right to appeal to them and not keep losing.
We just need to force the reverse. If Democrats keep winning elections Republicans will be forced to put out a candidate that’s more palatable to leftists sooner or later. Someone who isn’t a literal movie villain. At that point, Democrats will lose their only selling point (being the alternative to Satan himself), and they will have to actually push for leftist policies to get people to vote.
This can only happen if Democrats win a lot of times in a row though. Even one Republican win will ensure them that they can keep pushing fascists and have a chance to win.
The thing I generally disagree with is the idea that Democrats would move leftward, and not just further into Liberalism. Even Social Democracies in the Nordic countries are seeing a decrease in the welfare state, just like Reagan did with FDR-era policies.
Sorry I wasn’t clear - I’m saying if you care about reshaping the Dems, you do it after we defeat Trump.
There is no guarantee it will be different this time, that’s politics. But giving up on it isn’t an option - politics happens to us whether we are active or not. But if you’re hoping for change, it’ll be a lot harder to see if Trump gets reelected. I promise you that.
You told me this last fucking election and nothing has changed.
I lost my reproductive freedoms
I fear for my wife’s life whenever we have to travel out of state - she’s trans
Clarance fucking Thomas is threatening to undo gay marriage.
The democrats have done NOTHING for me. And instead i’m watching half of them cheerlead a fucking genocide of brown people in the middle east
How are they different from republicans? How is biden different than trump? He’s trying to pass trump’s immigration plan while letting Bibi murder his neighbors.
Nah fam. I’m officially giving up. People like you who refuse to hold democrats to account have made life worse for everyone.
The moment Trump was defeated in 2020 liberal and moderates did exactly what they always do: demand priority over leftists and progressives in every policy disagreement and Biden was happy to oblige.
No. Moderate voters, liberal voters, the DNC, establishment Democrats and Biden will all reshape now or lose to Trump. Make a choice.
I’m sorry but this is basically the same argument that I got multiple others in this thread so instead of answering again, I’m going to ask you a question.
What exactly is y’alls game plan then? How do you think you’ll benefit by punishing Biden and helping get Trump elected?
Your question attempts to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard than moderates and liberals.
What is the game plan of moderates, liberals, establishment Democrats and Biden? How do they think they’ll benefit by refusing to make material compromises with leftists and progressives?
That same line was told during 2020, 2016, 2008, 2000, and so forth. Where is the leftist concession? Where is the Democratic party being pushed? How are you planning on achieving change?
You’re basically just repeating yourself now. Like it or not, you’re parroting the played out lines that the Trumpist want us to repeat to strengthen their hand.
Politics isn’t easy but ‘burn it down because they’re not catering to me’ is not a responsible vote this year.
When will it be time? How do you plan on shaping dems? You’re repeating yourself here.
I don’t know what you’re even asking - how do I personally plan to shape the party? If I could wave a magic wand I would but obviously it’s something that is shaped by the collective and we all need to be engaged in the various areas we are passionate about.
This ‘cater to me or else’ sort of nihilism is the laziest sort of attitude and I get really tired of seeing it in liberal circles. I can tell you’re passionate and are probably very politically active in your own ways, but so many people seem to think that withholding their vote will sove the problem and that it then somehow absolves them of having to do anything else.
You’re wrong on quite a few things here.
How can a leftist meaninfully convince a liberal Capitalist party to move leftward, rather than continuing liberalism? Seriously speaking, if I am a leftist, and I want Leftist change, how do you think I should go about doing that?
It’s not nihilism, it’s not liberalism, and it’s not “cater to me or else,” that’s pure condescension. I am also not planning on witholding my vote, I want genuine leftist change.
Why does promising to vote for liberalism, a right wing ideology, help Leftists unless the DNC feels threatened by a lack of progressive support and thus concedes?
Except step one is repeated every. damn. time.
Its never time to reshape the Democratic Party. If the democrats win, it will be too early to fix the Democratic Party for millions of reasons. And four years pass and every campaign promise is ignored, and all of a sudden it’s back to 1. Beat the new threat to “democracy” 2. Fix the Democratic Party… ad nauseam forever.
