Obligatory mention that you don’t need to cut out meat from your life entirely to have a significant impact on your carbon footprint and your health. Going mostly vegetarian is also an option and its basically been the default of humanity since the agricultural revolution.
It’s really beef that is the vast majority of emissions just cutting that out of your diet gets most of the environmental benefits of vegetarian.
And sheep. Cutting dairy is generally a pretty easy swap.
Non-vegans should support vegans, even if they continue to eat meat, because vegans drive better treatment of animals and also drive more attractive non-animal food options.
However, a person must have a brain and also not have meat eating tied to their masculinity.
Ecofeminism has a lot to say about meat/masculinity/fascism.
Yeah, you can’t say the conditions we’re subjecting livestock to is “good”. You don’t give up your rights to eat bbq if you admit it.
Everyone I know actually unironically feels this way lol and always comes to me for advice on going more vegan. Vegan hatred is a strong flea dip for me though, basically any% criticism of vegans ensures I will likely never speak to you again.
What are your thoughts on someone going into the woods and catching wild game?
Those are the kings woods and they should be hanged.
Keep your monarchy to yourself lol
Is it awful of me to have stopped eating meat from animals I think are beautiful and sweet, like cows and pigs, but still eat meat from some animals I think are ugly and mean, like chickens and sheeps?
As a non-vegan, that seems to be morally neutral to me (you’re still eating meat), barring differences in treatment and ecological impact of specific animals (I think cows are particularly bad in terms of environmental impact?)
Sheep aren’t mean. Just very, very, very stupid.
Agree! We raised three lambs at home and they were all unbelievably stupid and slightly suicidal.
I get it. It’s like when nazis killed jews because they thought they are icky
basically any% criticism of vegans ensures I will likely never speak to you again.
Tbh this is kind of a stupid behavior, if it’s a valid criticism i don’t see why you’d have to react like that
It’s not, because criticising “vegans” is done to avoid discussing veganism, which is objectively better than meat eating. This does not include people who say, argue whether starving people should eat meat to survive, which is not a criticism of vegans. I’m open to discussing any real life actual moral paradigms with reasonable people.
Basically you’re assuming it’s not purely coincidence. Plenty of my friends eat meat lol. They’re just rational and not the type of person who thinks I deserve to be cross examined for the actions of all people who are also vegan. People who act like I should like, idk, answer for PETA? My life has objectively improved by letting those bridges burn naturally. It’s done wonders for my mental health.
because criticising “vegans” is done to avoid discussing veganism
In that case it’s probably not a valid criticism
Basically you’re assuming it’s not purely coincidence
I am not gettin this, sorry
Fun fact: The actor in this scene is vegetarian, so they used mushrooms instead of steak
Which is kind of wild, because I don’t know if a steak has ever looked better on film than the cut shown in this scene. I understand that sentiment may not hold true for folks on vegetarian or vegan diets based on ethical grounds, but that may as well be the Platonic ideal of “fancy steak”.
Visually, yes.
However I’ve not met a mushroom that tastes and feels like beef. Impossible burgers get close but it’s far from a steak.
Have you tried the
impossibleBeyond steak? Highly recommendI’ve never had Impossible Steak. Do you like Beyond? I’ve noticed some people like one or the other.
Have you tried Lions Mane steak?
Herbivorous Butcher is really good too and they have a cookbook to make your own.
Oh shoot my bad I actually meant beyond steak- I kinda hate the taste of everything Impossible makes lol
Whooaa, cool! I haven’t but I definitely need to; thanks for sharing!
There was a brand called Meati that made steaks out of mycelium that were so goddamn good. Closest to the real thing I’ve had so far. Unfortunately some shady financial shenanigans cost them their production plant. There’s a new owner trying to get them up and running again though so fingers crossed there.
Funner fact: the actor in the original Oldboy is also vegan, but he still ate that live octopus.
He’s vegetarian not vegan. It’s incredibly hard to be a vegan in korea, but it’s very easy to be a vegetarian. The vast majority of halmeoni cooking your food over there basically equivocate vegetarianism and vegan to be the same thing. A lot of traditional foods have hidden animal products in it like shrimp paste for seasoning.
I once tried talking to my like 85 year old Korean granny about it and she strongly explained to me that things like krill were more like plants than animals, which in some ways is kinda true.
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It’s incredibly hard to be a vegan in korea, but it’s very easy to be a vegetarian.
A lot of traditional foods have hidden animal products in it like shrimp paste for seasoning.
Sounds like it’s easy to be a pescatarian, but not actually a vegetarian.
So nothing, basically.
Same in Japan… it’s so hard to be vegan.
TIL 200k tons of krill are harvested each year.
Ahhh, okay. I thought I had read he was vegan, maybe I misremembered or maybe the article was wrong.
May have been the article if it was originally from a Korean source. Like I said they tend to use vegan and vegetarian interchangeably a lot.
That’s slightly less fun. I’ll eat a pig or a chicken or a cow but octopodes are too smart for me to eat.
Same. cephalopods in general for me. I still feel bad about eating meat otherwise but I can’t even think about eating octopus
Pigs are smarter than dogs, that’s what makes em taste so good!
I eat smart things only to get smarter. You are what you eat after all. Octoponi, Chimpansessies, Peeps, Dolphones, etc. Ant too since I want hive mind. My brain grows.
Okay Sylar…
I stopped eating them recently for that reason.
Just realised looking at this that it’s the same actor as Ralph from The Sopranos. I’ve watched both recently too!
But who plays Cypher in the Matrix in The Sopranos universe?
Ralphie
TIL!!!
And Ralph’s wig in The Sopranos is modelled on Christopher Nolan’s hair when he was directing Memento, which also stars the same actor.
I’m in this picture and feel pretty neutral about that.
One time I had a hardcore combo meth-heroin addict who was vegan who candidly told me something to the effect of ‘idgaf what I put in my body I just have a moral problem with the livestock industry’ and I was like ‘you know what, based.’ The core issue of that conversation was that dietary sent a roll with dinner and they were like ‘naaah I can tell by the texture they used cows butter’ and like many things in the hospital they’re probably right and also at least they recognized I had no way of fixing it.
No its not fine to oppress others even if you know you are wrong to. You sound like a founding father who writes that slavery is wrong but brutally exploits slaves anyway.
Yup. The leftism leaves so many leftists’ bodies the moment animal liberation comes up. If you recognize the problem, don’t be complacent on the solution.
Unlike so many other rights struggles, basic veganism doesn’t require action, but rather the cessation of harmful actions. In that regard, it’s easier than taking action against other forms of exploitation: simply stop consuming animal products. Plant-based alternatives are readily available (I went vegan in a food desert) and are better for you than eating some poor animal’s flesh.
The biggest hurdle, is the meat-eating culture, and how it is the dominant one in many places, right now. People need certain mental strenght to go againt the culture around them, especially when they have been raised up with it, and not all have that. If all people around you are vegans, and it is considered the norm, a lot of people would become vegan too, just to fit in. As long as meat-eating is seen as normal and people are raised to believe it is normal, many people will continue, even if they agree vegans are right.
People don’t wanna by hypocrites as if that can ever be truly avoided
Maaan. That is me, with so many things. At least I’m moving in the right direction, or so I like to tell me.
Plants are alive too. Vegans are just plant racists.
Veganism isn’t about not eating what was or is “alive”. It’s about “suffering” (and avoiding it as much as possible).
You can find that fundamental belief in Buddhism or Jainism too. If you think about it, you can probably find it in you. Why would anybody want to make any other sentient body suffer?
Vegan is just not eating stuff from animal, someone’s reasoning for that varies.
Veganism can also be about environmental impact. I’m vegetarian mostly because a meat based diet isn’t sustainable on a global scale. While I’m obviously happy about the reduced suffering, it’s importance is only in second place for me.
Tho maybe veganism is pretty much entirely for reducing animals suffering, I’m only a vegetarian and won’t pretend to know for sure.
It’s a widespread misunderstanding but adopting a plant based diet for some reason other than avoiding the exploitation of animals isn’t veganism. Praying five times a day isn’t Islam unless you’re praying to Allah.
While I’m obviously happy about the reduced suffering, it’s importance is only in second place for me.
that’s confusing. I don’t know how to reply.
why is “environmental impact” concerning you if it’s not for the suffering it causes and will cause?
We are only just beginnig to understand what plants feel. They have hormons they have pain rezeptors they have a basic neural net.
To assume a plant would not suffer is a little outdated.
Even 20 Yeats ago it was already known that plants do feel pain. they inform surrounding plants about pain and they react to it.
Even if we took that as true, directly eating plants still kills fewer plants than feeding them to animals and then eating those animals.
to assume plants are sentient is a charognard propaganda
outdated? pfff… Receptors doesn’t mean “pain rezeptors”. Don’t seed confusion.
If you are eating boring meat like chicken breast or ground beef you might as well make it vegan or get some fat on it
i eat vegetarian most of the month but i gotta have a steak at some point
Theyre not? We are apes,apes like of veggies and meat.
Plus, we are one of the most carnivore of the big apes,our guts are adapted to both meat and vegetables, we are not able to decompose celulose.
Crazy it’s like you don’t know one single thing about the vegan viewpoint and are arguing entirely against strawmen.
You know, the way people who are wrong and don’t have the maturity to admit it or at least the education to put forth an actual counter argument might do.
I don’t think anyone would deny we are adapted for an omnivorous diet. But we are omnivores rather than obligate carnivores, so meat consumption does remain a choice rather than an imperative. Should our biology dictate our morality?
No, but our morality cant really dictate our biology either.
Should our biology dictate our morality?
Should evolutionary proximity dictate our morality?
We understand animals, because they are closer to us than plants. But plants are also living creatures. The fact is, unless you photosynthesise, every large living being has to consume another to survive.
I think the choice is much more complex than meat vs vegan. I think it comes down to farming practices, particularly industrial farming which min/maxes everything and cuts corners as much as they can get away with to save on cost.
Palm oil is vegan. Yet palm oil farming is the cause of a great deal of habitat and species loss. Palm oil is quietly used in a lot of vegan food.
we are clearly adopted to live in the savannah yet many would choose a constructed home. curious
And? the thing is that still we can make do, its like implying a modern PC cannot run a NES game.
You have to emulate stuff btw.
giving the most benefit of the doubt to you here.
when the post says “vegans are obviously right”, assuming that to mean that humans are made to not eat meat is a very bad faith interpretation. similar equating can happen when someone says all genders are equal and someone pulls out the sexual dimorphism research to claim they aren’t. there’s missing context of what is being said and what is being interpreted. i dont believe there’s a substantial group of vegans claiming humans are incapable or not ‘evolved’ to eat meat.
i am not debating that humans are apes, most carnivore, or adapted to both meat and vegetables. i don’t agree there, citations needed, but taking it as a mere simplification of facts its fine enough.
there’s complexity to the question of eating meat now that society has reached a point where we no longer need it to sustain ourselves. i am not arguing either way here but an argument there exists and we will need to have an answer to it. just like we didnt evolve to be able to see if our eyes fuck up, but we managed to just have spectacles (and surgery) to fix it. we can adopt to a non-meat diet if that is the answer, whether or not we evolved for it.
i am conflicted on if vegans are right. but i can appreciate that they are at least right on pointing towards the question.
So that by itself is a very good question, but the ability of not consuminy it should not mean the obligation(or prohibition), or even the morals on the wheter of eating or not eating meat.
So thats my argument, we really should not matter that much about what is on the meal of people by itself. Maybe, one day, artificial meat becomes better than normal one and we end up replacing meat, and humannity, accidentally, end up as a vegan species by itself.
The thing is that involving the morally good or wrong about something like food shouldnt be a thing if it can be improved or obsoleted.
(I am not vegan)
Apes eat meat. Humans do industrial farming. These things are not the same.
Which can be more ecologic given newer tech and incentives
We are apes,apes like of veggies and meat.
Go tell that to a gorilla. Being a great ape, ‘it’ would punch you to a pulp and go eat some “celulose” (sic). You would rot in vain.
apes can eat also bugs, bugs are animals
This is a super hot take so bare with me, but the conditions of a lot of vegan food production are also often harmful to the humans that grow the food (I’m talking blood produce) and the growth in popularity of certain superfoods have severely damaged the ecosystems that indigenous populations in the areas where they’re from depended on.
This is not to say being vegan is bad. It’s obviously proven to be better for the environment, and the way that animals are treated is absolutely inhumane.
This is to say however that we should be demanding sustainability in all our food consumption and respect for all living beings. But mostly, it’s to say fuck capitalism.
By vegan food production you must mean processed fake meat? Not all vegans eat a horrible diet.
If you mean vegan food production as in normal non-meat foods such as vegetables than that’s a while opinion. Unless you are Jain or just want to die, we got to eat something.
Most food production in general kills a lot more than I would like especially vegetable and fruit production. Not much to do on the regard though.
Yes I did mean veg and fruit, but I mean that obviously we need to eat but we need to do it in a sustainable and fair way.
Currently a lot of the produce in Canada & the US is grown by migrant labour where people are treated horribly. In Mexico, many of the agricultural production sites are owned by cartels. Quinoa used to be a primary food source for quechuan (peruvian indigenous) people but when it grew in popularity in the west, it became too expensive for those who depended on it. There are many more examples.
What there is to do about it is to demand better agricultural practices and support fair-trade, co-ops, and sustainable food vendors. In the same way we should be / are demanding cruelty-free and sustainable animal products.
Fully agree. Good point on labor too, I was considering insects and rodents.
Unless you are Jain or just want to die, we got to eat something.
That’s the thing though, why should plants be more eligible for eating than animals? Both are living. Animals are closer to us, so we can understand them better, but that doesn’t mean we aren’t being just as harmful to plants.
I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with eating another animal for sustenance. Just the same as there isn’t anything wrong with eating a plant for sustenance. What matters is what we do before we eat them.
Are you stupid? Genuine question, because animals need to eat as well for you to pay someone to murder them. Even going from the assumption that plants suffer too, a plant based diet still causes much fewer plants to die compared to feeding the plants inefficiently to animals to then eat the animals.
Plants cannot think or feel as animals can. Arguing a tomato has the emotions and thought of a dog or pig is just silly.
Killing a pig versus a tomato is not the same thing dawg
as animals can.
As we can. We understand how animals think, because evolutionarily they’re closer to us. We don’t really understand how plants “think” or “feel”, we just decide that because they don’t have what we have that makes it okay.
Just making up whatever you want aren’t you?
“I’m not a plant therefore idk what their nonthinking minds are thinking”
Who is we in your statement? Pretty sure modern botany understands how plants work and interact.
I’m doing more good as an antinatalist than any vegan
They hated him, for he spoke the truth.
we should be demanding sustainability in all our food consumption and respect for all living beings
Hear hear.
Plants are living beings, also. The fact is, unless you photosynthesise, you likely have to consume another living being to survive.
What nearly everyone can agree on is that industrial farming practices are harmful. Not just to the living things we farm, but also to the consumers, who end up consuming a lesser product that is often contaminated by industrial processes that cut corners to save on cost.
Nah, there are definitely some vegetarian and vegan foods (especially when we’re talking ultraprocessed foods) that are worse for the environment and worse for your health than just plain meat or cheese.
Genuinely which ones? Everything I can think of is better than meat. Largely because the cows eat a lot of food in the first place with most of it being wasted.
It’s been a good long while since I made my comparisons but i believe Quorn was worse than chicken (but not as bad as beef obviously). In Sweden we also have Anamma which used to be very good, but at some point they removed their classic formulations and suddenly added like 30% sugar to everything (and doubled the price for good measure). Not sure if they’ve walked that back by now, hopefully they have.
Oh you are talking about fake meat stuff, I was thinking of normal ingredients.
In the UK there’s a sweet maker called Candy Kittens. They make, like, vegan Haribo (only better) that tastes really really nice.
They’ve started making their own vegan peanut M&M’s. Instead of chocolate they use a shit ton of palm oil.
It’s “ethically sourced” palm oil, but that’s still a sour thought after you’ve devoured a whole bag of tasty sweet treats in one sitting. It’s still increasing the market capacity for palm oil, which in turn increases demand to destroy habitats eg orangutans in Indonesia and other SE Asian islands.
TL;DR palm oil is vegan.
Wait isn’t chocolate vegan though? Why substitute chocolate with palm oil?
Lynchist
ok.
I don’t argue about whether or not people should be vegan. I just know that my quality of life would be vastly diminished as I really don’t enjoy most vegan food. If they can nail lab created meat, I’m all for it.
I think you might be shocked how easy it is to eat tasty vegan food, saying you dont enjoy"most vegan food" implies to me that you’ve only had a really limited selection of what’s available. Highly recommend trying ethiopian food.
The issue with that is that cooking is difficult and eating out is expensive.
Ethiopian veggies are great but yebeg wot is on a different level.
There’s tasty vegan food for sure hut there’s usually a slightly tastier horrifically unethical alternative.
I agree with op, I think vegans are right, I basically support them but ain’t converting. Realizing they were right on food made me a lot less angry that other people don’t feel the same way I do about sweatshop clothes and they, like me are doing their best. Some prioritise animals in tortorous conditions, others prioritise kids in poor ones, others look after drug addled first worlders, everyone’s got their own moral priorities.
I very much doubt it would be unless you’re already artificially limiting what you’re eating
I mean, depending on where you’re from, you can already get most meat products in a convincing non-lab alternative, at least from what I hear from colleagues. (I don’t have an opinion on this, because I don’t like meat. 🫠)
That is definitely not the case. Most meat alternatives are still pretty awful
Are you from the US?
